Implosion at ADV Fiberglass - No more hard tops

ADV should have just stuck with making the fenders. It seems most of the folks that got a set of those are/were happy with them. I like them on Mitchell Watts Bronco. I know my factory Top is not perfect but at least it doesn't leak water and I have it.

one.badbronco

I totally agree with your post - when I read the lawsuit I could not believe the amounts of money that they were sending to APG over a HAND SHAKE. I just cannot wrap my head around it.... It literally screams "tinder swindler."

APG: Hey, ADV, I need another 500k wired to me today for, ummm, stuff.

ADV: OK! Sent.

I believe that there was more than a handshake. ADV had a contract with APG. It was a terrible contract for ADV, so you have to wonder why they signed that? But still, I think that the way that ADV dealt with APG was either incredibly naive, or they were in the scam together. APG needed the money in order to get the manufacturing up and running, and ADV got people to fund it via pre-orders. BTW, I too believe that APG knew full well where that money was coming from, but that's just speculation on my part. In either case, I don't know if I would ever do business with either one of them again, in the current incarnation, or in any future incarnation after the bankruptcies that are sure to come.

JoergH

I believe that there was more than a handshake. ADV had a contract with APG.

They forked over truck loads of cash before signing the 'official' agreement. Well, according to the court documentation at least.

*snip from lawsuit*

Ultimately, in late 2021, based on Gemayel' s salesmanship the October 2021 Representations and Promises, Plaintiff and APG agreed on a "handshake" agreement for the production, distribution and sale of the Hardtops

*snip from lawsuit*

A memorandum of understanding was signed on February 7th 2022

*snip from lawsuit*

APG Invoice 1505
2/15/22: $326,500
5/27 /22: $68,566.18

*snip from lawsuit*

on August 29, 2022, while Plaintiff waited for the Hardtops to be produced and shipped and relying on the promises and good faith of Defendants, Plaintiff entered into a formal distribution agreement with APG

In a nutshell:

1. A memorandum of understanding was signed on February 7th 2022
2. ADV paid APG a total of $395,066.18 prior to signing the distribution agreement. Payments were made February 2022 and May 2022.
3. The distribution agreement was signed on August 29th 2022

I am not sure how legally binding the MOU is but ADV handed over about $400,000 before ever signing the 'official' distribution agreement.

The whole thing is just bizarre..

raqball

They forked over truck loads of cash before signing the 'official' agreement. Well, according to the court documentation at least.

*snip from lawsuit*

Ultimately, in late 2021, based on Gemayel' s salesmanship the October 2021 Representations and Promises, Plaintiff and APG agreed on a "handshake" agreement for the production, distribution and sale of the Hardtops

*snip from lawsuit*

A memorandum of understanding was signed on February 7th 2022

*snip from lawsuit*

APG Invoice 1505
2/15/22: $326,500
5/27 /22: $68,566.18

*snip from lawsuit*

on August 29, 2022, while Plaintiff waited for the Hardtops to be produced and shipped and relying on the promises and good faith of Defendants, Plaintiff entered into a formal distribution agreement with APG

In a nutshell:

1. A memorandum of understanding was signed on February 7th 2022
2. ADV paid APG a total of $395,066.18 prior to signing the distribution agreement. Payments were made February 2022 and May 2022.
3. The distribution agreement was signed on August 29th 2022

I am not sure how legally binding the MOU is but ADV handed over about $400,000 before ever signing the 'official' distribution agreement.

The whole thing is just bizarre..

I agree, it is bizarre! As I understand it, ADV paid APG about $4 million overall! That's a lot of money for just distribution rights for a product being developed by someone else. AND they aren't even exclusive distribution rights! The whole thing just smells, and as I said before, I think that both hands are dirty here. But none of that matters for the people who are left holding the bag to the tune of $7K.

JoergH

I agree, it is bizarre! As I understand it, ADV paid APG about $4 million overall! That's a lot of money for just distribution rights for a product being developed by someone else. AND they aren't even exclusive distribution rights! The whole thing just smells, and as I said before, I think that both hands are dirty here. But none of that matters for the people who are left holding the bag to the tune of $7K.

Wait people we’re having to pay in full for the pre-orders not just earnest money.
Man for $4 million they could have bought hardtop Broncos stripped the tops off sold the tops then put soft tops on them and sold the Broncos with best tops. That would have been a better business model.
😜

Jakob1972

Wait people we’re having to pay in full for the pre-orders not just earnest money.
Man for $4 million they could have bought hardtop Broncos stripped the tops off sold the tops then put soft tops on them and sold the Broncos with best tops. That would have been a better business model.
😜

It's worse than that. They were charging full price up front, and they had about 1200 people go for it. So they actually took in closer to $8.4 million!

JoergH

It's worse than that. They were charging full price up front, and they had about 1200 people go for it. So they actually took in closer to $8.4 million!

I wonder how many of those people would have participated if they knew this was basically a 'good luck with that' type kickstarter project that was ran as being legit by ADV on their website?

raqball

I wonder how many of those people would have participated if they knew this was basically a 'good luck with that' type kickstarter project that was ran as being legit by ADV on their website?

Right?!? ADV basically advertised that they were doing the work in house, and based on their reputation for the other fiberglass work they had been doing, people believed them.

JoergH

It's worse than that. They were charging full price up front, and they had about 1200 people go for it. So they actually took in closer to $8.4 million!

Those tops were about 1/5 the cost of the Bronco itself. I doubt those tops would have made those Broncos that much more valuable.
Sad.

Yikes. After reading through all of this, what a disaster for everyone who put money down on one of those hard tops.
Without knowing all the facts, it's hard to judge either company.
ADV's letter appears to be very damning to APG, but of course they would slant everything to their benefit.
Until the details come out in court, all I can say is that I'd avoid so much as purchasing a washer from either business.
Kind of a shame - APG has some very cool looking builds & some nice looking parts & of course the ADV fenders are a great product so far.

All I can say is before you make any major purchase, do some research & make sure the people you're buying from are reputable.

jtgensler

All I can say is before you make any major purchase, do some research & make sure the people you're buying from are reputable.

That's the problem. As far as I know, both companies were considered reputable before this fiasco. It should have been ran as a kickstarter but ADV decided to place them up as a legit pre-order item on their official website.

jtgensler

ADV's letter appears to be very damning to APG, but of course they would slant everything to their benefit.

A lot of ADV's claims against APG in the court filing are he said, she said type things. Unless they have audio recordings of their conversations, there is no way to prove or disprove a lot of what is being claimed. I believe in CA it's illegal to record someone without their permission.

I think ADV filed the lawsuit in an attempt to deflect blame away from themselves when they realized they had defrauded over $8 million dollars from their customers.

I said it before but here goes again.. ADV took customers money and APG did not. I am not taking sides as I have no skin in this game but after reading the court filing and the exhibits, it's obvious that both companies have fault in this.

100% of the fault for the customers loosing cash falls on ADV and ADV alone as they were the only ones taking customer cash. ADV took in over $8 million dollars and are now trying to wash their hands clean of their customers. It's absolutely pathetic!

If ADV wanted to throw their own personal cash at this, or investor cash, then cool - but they didn't.

ADV is also claiming they can't produce them in house because of a patent pending issue with APG. That is total and 100% BS. That could easily be fought if what they are claiming is true.

ADV should either refund everyone and take the monetary issues up against APG in court OR fight the patent pending issue and make them in house as they claim they would be able to do if not for the patent pending issue.. They should not be allowed to scam $8 million dollars from their customers and walk away clean..

My. 02

raqball

That's the problem. As far as I know, both companies were considered reputable before this fiasco. It should have been ran as a kickstarter but ADV decided to place them up as a legit pre-order item on their official website.

well if whoever commented that ADV used to be called Glassworks & had done something like this before knew that, I'd argue that they weren't a reputable company.

And yeah, obviously ADV is the only one who took consumer $ directly.
But what did APG do with the $ they took from ADV if they're not following thru on making the tops?

Like I said, until I find out more, I wouldn't trust either company.

And I agree, if ADV wants to have any chance to survive as a business, they have to find some way to issue refunds.
Unfortunately, they likely don't have the kind of cash flow.
No commercial bank would loan them money for that, so unless they can file some kind of insurance protection or get an angel investor (or whoever owns it dumps some $$$ in personally), they're probably not long for this scene.

jtgensler

And yeah, obviously ADV is the only one who took consumer $ directly.
But what did APG do with the $ they took from ADV if they're not following thru on making the tops?

I have been looking at this from a consumer standpoint.

If I were a customer who pre-ordered from ADV I couldn't care less what APG did with the money that ADV foolishly handed over. I didn't give my money to APG with the promise of a hardtop, I gave it to ADV.. Any issues between ADV and APG are between them and them alone.

Like I said earlier, I would not buy a $1 pack of screws from either company at this point. They both deserve to go belly up and out of bizz for good!

If they attempt to reconstruct under a different company name, then when it's discovered, people need to be alerting others by posting on forums etc of the dangers in dealing with either company.

raqball

If I were a customer who pre-ordered from ADV I couldn't care less what APG did with the money that ADV foolishly handed over. I didn't give my money to APG with the promise of a hardtop, I gave it to ADV.. Any issues between ADV and APG are between them and them alone.

From the consumer side, you're 100% correct.
From the legal side, I'm sure that will be the $8M question.

It might be ADV's only way to survive in fact - if they can prove that they were in fact defrauded as they claim.
Using customer $ to fund development is shady as F*** but I don't know that it's illegal (even without a disclaimer)

But if they prove that, they might gain some public opinion & more importantly a legal recourse to recovering some of the funds & making people right - which is the only real way they can survive

if they attempt to reconstruct under a different company name, then when it's discovered, people need to be alerting others by posting on forums etc of the dangers in dealing with either company.

I'm honestly shocked they were able to due this once already without it being ferreted out by the community.

It might be ADV's only way to survive in fact - if they can prove that they were in fact defrauded as they claim.
Using customer $ to fund development is shady as F*** but I don't know that it's illegal (even without a disclaimer)

But if they prove that, they might gain some public opinion & more importantly a legal recourse to recovering some of the funds & making people right - which is the only real way they can survive.

I don't think anyone who pre-ordered will ever see a single cent back. The lawsuit could get tossed but even if it does not, I assume the losing company would just declare bankruptcy.

ADV might be able to get a tiny sliver of reputation back if they were to prevail but I'd still question their business decisions and competence. There were warning signs all over this and ADV should have never put them up for pre-order and they should have pulled the plug long before they did to minimize the damage.

I personally think that both companies are, and should be, toast no matter who, if anyone, prevails in a lawsuit.

There was a reddit thread that I briefly skimmed through. One person stated he asked for a refund months before this collapse. He stated he was told by ADV that the refund was sent via check. This poster advised he never got it and is now also out his cash even though he backed out before it all crumbled.

I feel terrible for those who got scammed. $7K is nothing to sneeze at and both of these companies need to be bankrupted and out of bizz for good and forever..

I still place 100% of the blame on ADV for the customers loosing $7,000 each as they were the ones who took the cash with the promise of a hardtop, not APG. Whatever APG promised ADV is between them.

Looks like @RagnarKon posted a video on the topic.

Come on APG.... when I read their statement they released last week. ADV was just a "distributor".... Wow, want a great trade off (if the receipts are real) 4.4 million dollars paid to APG to be just a DISTRIBUTOR?????

Where do I sign up to be a distributor?? 🤣😂

It was a Ponzi Scheme. A seller is always responsible for what he sells. You can't blame supply chain slowdowns or poor quality, your plant burning down, or the top engineer quiting. They SOLD the tops, and OWE the customers.

I would start a class action lawsuit if I had ordered one. But I would NEVER finance a small business with a new product with a FULL payment with months or years to wait. That was very foolish, those that did so.

A court, judge and Jury will decide in the public's favor. Not ADV. They better get crackin on a better plan to pay back.

AZshot

It was a Ponzi Scheme. A seller is always responsible for what he sells. You can't blame supply chain slowdowns or poor quality, your plant burning down, or the top engineer quiting. They SOLD the tops, and OWE the customers.

I would start a class action lawsuit if I had ordered one. But I would NEVER finance a small business with a new product with a FULL payment with months or years to wait. That was very foolish, those that did so.

A court, judge and Jury will decide in the public's favor. Not ADV. They better get crackin on a better plan to pay back.

I agree but a class action suit would only lead to the lawyers getting rich. The customers who were scammed would get a check for $1.47. This is what happens in most class actions.

Plus, I am sure ADV would file bankruptcy..

We, the consumer, can put these clowns out of biz by not spending a single cent with them, ever!

I know that does not help the people who were scammed get their $$$ back but I don't think are are going to get repaid no matter what..

And -----> As I predicted above, these thieves / scammers filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy..

https://www.inforuptcy.com/browse-f.../bankruptcy-case-advanced-fiberglass-concepts

I am surprised that the other half of this fiasco hasn’t filed yet