Ford and CATL

WildsheepGS4
Aug 04, 2023

Rank II

Aug 04, 2023

Does this bother anyone ?

I wont get into the details of this partnership, you can do your own research, but I'm just curious if this partnership bothers any ford owners or potential Ford owners. It's been covered in detail.

Right now Ford Motor Company is losing approximately $ 35,000.00 per every EV vehicle produced, which equates to approximately 4.5 billion per year. Ford gas powered vehicle division is doing reasonably well and making a profit, aside from being the recall leader the past 2 years. Ford Motor Company is has also taken the largest amount of subsidy / Bailout money from the United States government to date for EV development , 3 times more than General Motors. Lets be honest , the United States tax payer and the ford customers purchasing VERY EXPENSIVE gas powered trucks, suvs, and mustangs are basically subsidizing the Ford / CATL deal in Marshall , Michigan. What concerns me is that in February Ford CEO Jim Farley went on CNBC in February and when asked about the agreement with CATL replied that ford had no other options. CNBC vehemently questioned Mr. Farley on this and Farley continued to lie on national television. By the way, almost every statement made by Mr. Farley is either Ford Propaganda or straight out lies.

Mr. Faley claims that Ford has no other choice than to partner with CATL for battery production in the United States, on tax payers money.

Lets take a look at the competition :

1) toyota = owns their own battery production company with Panasonic as of 2022 and will build a plant in north carolina with batteries made using Panasonic technology and United States raw materials with 100 percent American workers = non-union.

2) stellantis = will partner with Lyten a company headquartered in CALIFORNIA.

3) General Motors = will partner with LG, Livent, and POSCO for EV battery support.

Again, this proves that Farley lied when asked the question by CNBC. Remember the United States specifically wrote the EV subsidy law bill so that a large percentage on EV battery production had to be North American or with a country that is in good standings with the United States and CHINA is excluded from the list. Ford believes they found a loop pole. Sounds sleazy to me. The plant in Michigan will be financed by the United States tax payers using Chinese technology, chinese materials, and approximately 300 Chinese engineers who will oversee the production. Sweet deal for ford, all they do at the end of the day is employ approximately 2500 UAW workers and build a cheap battery with Fords emblem stamped on it at the tax payers expense.

Keep in mind , I own 4 Ford vehicles totaling approximately $ 335,000.00.

Is there something I'm missing here or does this seem wrong and completely selfish that the company that's taunts themselves as the most " pro USA company" is working with and paying the same country/company that was flying drones over the United States and Canada, and participates in war games with RUSSIA.

I have to ask, I'm I the only Ford customer this bothers ?
OrangecrushBronco, the poacher
Last edited by a moderator: Aug 04, 2023

Rank V

Aug 04, 2023

#1
I just want to know what 4 FORD vehicles you have that are worth $335,000.00? Unless they are all brand new FORD GTs.
Tim Bolt

U.S. ARMY RANGER / ASE MASTER TECH.
Rydfree

Rank 0

Aug 04, 2023

#2
2500 more UAW workers in Michigan is pretty good for America in my opinion. Good paying jobs that support a lot of families and businesses.

I also think perhaps it is an exaggeration that all the workers will be overseen by "300 Chinese engineers". I've been to a lot of factories, and even transplant factories and that isn't usually how the work is divided up.

As far as "Chinese technology", CATL has taken American LFP technology and improved on it. As good as a company as Ford is, it doesn't make batteries and hasn't developed any technology so it has neither the know how or the manufacturing experience to do this on their own. Your point about the competition stands. All the OEMs have partnered up with battery companies, some have partnered with more than one. I can add a few:

BMW has partnered with Samsung and CATL

Mercedes has partnered with Samsung

Nissan spun off their battery cell (probably the worst in the business) into AESC

Tesla has JV plants with both Panasonic and CATL

Stellantis had a JV with LG

So, yes Ford had to partner with a battery company and hopefully they picked a good one, I suppose we will find out.

As far as the subsidy goes, my understanding is this is a LOAN and not an outright subsidy. When the government bailed out Chrysler and GM a dozen years ago the taxpayers got all their money back with interest. Hopefully that will happen this time too. I would prefer if all this could be done in the private sector, but I'm not going to get too upset about it, especially on a Friday.
Eninty

Rank IV

Aug 04, 2023

#3
You are upset about a trend that started 40 years ago and is the artifact of Congress, the several Executive Branch Administrations, Wall Street, the EPA, OSHA, the NEA, and Phil Knight. All pulled the plug on American dominance in engineering and manufacturing that blossomed out of WWII.

It's far too late to complain about any of this. Once industries, via Wall Street investors, decided they could make larger profit by outsourcing labor to foriegn countries the domino effect started. Once manufacturing labor leaves for overseas, eventually manufacturing engineering leaves, then design engineering, then engineering, then finance.

You end up with a capitalist country drastically dependent on communists for everything (and a Chinese-built Getrag transmission in a Ford Bronco). But Americans continue to shop at Walmart and feel good about buying their Nike shoes. So stop worrying, it's too late; we're printing money for free.

Worry about real stuff like globalwarmingclimatechange; THAT's the existential THREAT we all face. Lol.
No salt tram towers were harmed in the making of this post...
WildsheepGS4

Burrito Connoisseur

Aug 04, 2023

#4
Yes it does bother me, but this is what happens when you are forced to play catch-up.

If Ford wants to be competitive in the electric vehicle space they want the best battery technology available in the market to give them the best chance of success. The company that has the best technology available is CATL. Therefore, Ford is licensing CATL manufacturing technology and techniques, and using it in their manufacturing plant. That is a perfectly logical business decision.

It is highly unlikely we'll fix the issue. Usually any steps to correct issues like this go very well up until it starts impacting people's wallets. Then all of a sudden people wake up and go "hold up... why are things so expensive now!? fix it!!" So until we can come to terms with the fact that the steps to correct issues like this will cost money... there is zero incentive for our elected officials to actually correct the root of the problem.

Fundamentally we as Americans have a terrible habit of wanting our cake and wanting to eat it too... and it simply doesn't work that way. And for the past several decades we've been happily eating the cake while wondering why the cake is disappearing.
2022 4dr Badlands, 2.3L Manual, Mid pkg
YouTube: youtube.com/@ragnarkon
Instagram: @ragnar.kon
GAN

Rank II

Aug 05, 2023

#5
I just want to know what 4 FORD vehicles you have that are worth $335,000.00? Unless they are all brand new FORD GTs.

GT 350 R

GT 500 CFTP

Bronco raptor

37 150 raptor.
OrangecrushBronco, Jakob1972

Rank II

Aug 05, 2023

#6
These type of responses really don’t surprise me. It really explains why this country is where it is today = gutless.

And I have to remind myself that if you own a ford bronco and you are a ford fanboy with monthly payments, of course you will be ok with ford partnering with a foreign advisory with American tax dollars.

I know at least three companies who are not partnering with China = Toyota, stellantis, and GM.

But I guess when you have a bronco and have a monthly payment with no way out you take the high road.

Maybe I should order some blue oval glasses.

Rank II

Aug 05, 2023

#7
You are upset about a trend that started 40 years ago and is the artifact of Congress, the several Executive Branch Administrations, Wall Street, the EPA, OSHA, the NEA, and Phil Knight. All pulled the plug on American dominance in engineering and manufacturing that blossomed out of WWII.

It's far too late to complain about any of this. Once industries, via Wall Street investors, decided they could make larger profit by outsourcing labor to foriegn countries the domino effect started. Once manufacturing labor leaves for overseas, eventually manufacturing engineering leaves, then design engineering, then engineering, then finance.

You end up with a capitalist country drastically dependent on communists for everything (and a Chinese-built Getrag transmission in a Ford Bronco). But Americans continue to shop at Walmart and feel good about buying their Nike shoes. So stop worrying, it's too late; we're printing money for free.

Worry about real stuff like globalwarmingclimatechange; THAT's the existential THREAT we all face. Lol.

You nailed it. You said it perfectly. Spot on !

On another note, are all the transmissions in every bronco , Chinese built transmissions ?

So does that mean all ford 10 speed transmissions are built by getrag ?

Rank IV

Aug 05, 2023

#8
You nailed it. You said it perfectly. Spot on !

On another note, are all the transmissions in every bronco , Chinese built transmissions ?

So does that mean all ford 10 speed transmissions are built by getrag ?

10-speed is a joint venture between Ford and GM and is built for the Bronco by Ford in USA. The 7-speed is Getrag (German originally, but now American Magna Powertrain) built in China.
No salt tram towers were harmed in the making of this post...
WildsheepGS4

Don't Follow Me ,I'm about to do something Stupid

Aug 05, 2023

#9
GT 350 R

GT 500 CFTP

Bronco raptor

37 150 raptor.

I would respect your ranting about Ford maybe just a wee bit if you did not claim (brag) about owning4 of their more expensive offerings. It really explains why this country is where it is today = gutless.
2Dr Badlands - MIC - Area51 - 2.7 Auto - MGV - Headliner - High Pkg
Reserved 7/20/20 Delivered 5/6/23
"Ford said, hey we're gonna fulfill all reservations and pre-orders before we build stock units."

Rank II

Aug 05, 2023

#10
I would respect your ranting about Ford maybe just a wee bit if you did not claim (brag) about owning4 of their more expensive offerings. It really explains why this country is where it is today = gutless.

Nothing like being bitter and jealous.

The other person asked which vehicles they where I listed them.

Don't Follow Me ,I'm about to do something Stupid

Aug 05, 2023

#11
Nothing like being bitter and jealous.

The other person asked which vehicles they where I listed them.

"Keep in mind , I own 4 Ford vehicles totaling approximately $ 335,000.00."

LMAO
2Dr Badlands - MIC - Area51 - 2.7 Auto - MGV - Headliner - High Pkg
Reserved 7/20/20 Delivered 5/6/23
"Ford said, hey we're gonna fulfill all reservations and pre-orders before we build stock units."

Rank II

Aug 05, 2023

#12
"Keep in mind , I own 4 Ford vehicles totaling approximately $ 335,000.00."

LMAO

2 dr badlands. Lmao.

Don't Follow Me ,I'm about to do something Stupid

Aug 05, 2023

#13
2 dr badlands. Lmao.

Paid for and happy .
Speaking of bitter , isn't the other forum more to your taste ?
2Dr Badlands - MIC - Area51 - 2.7 Auto - MGV - Headliner - High Pkg
Reserved 7/20/20 Delivered 5/6/23
"Ford said, hey we're gonna fulfill all reservations and pre-orders before we build stock units."

Rank II

Aug 05, 2023

#14
10-speed is a joint venture between Ford and GM and is built for the Bronco by Ford in USA. The 7-speed is Getrag (German originally, but now American Magna Powertrain) built in China.

So what you are saying is that all the 10 speed transmissions in the broncos and F 150’s are built in china and then shipped over to the United States and put into those vehicles ?

Rank II

Aug 05, 2023

#15
10-speed is a joint venture between Ford and GM and is built for the Bronco by Ford in USA. The 7-speed is Getrag (German originally, but now American Magna Powertrain) built in China.

I believe the ford ten speed transmission is built in lavonia, Michigan and Ohio.

Burrito Connoisseur

Aug 05, 2023

#16
I know at least three companies who are not partnering with China = Toyota, stellantis, and GM.

Both Stellantis and GM have been a CATL customers for several years, licensing technology, buying cells, etc.

I know for GM, most of the batteries used in vehicles sold overseas are CATL. It was cheaper just to make those vehicles in Asia using CATL, rather than exporting American-manufactured batteries created under the LG partnership. Stellantis uses just about everyone, LG, CATL, BYD, etc… although for the vehicles that were formerly American (everything under the Chrysler umbrella) they use Samsung.

I’ll admit I have no idea what Toyota is doing. The only Toyota hybrid/electric vehicle I have any interest in is the new Land Cruiser and that will be assembled in Japan. Not even an American product.



Anyway, I realize this all sounds pessimistic, but we’ve seen this all before with electronics manufacturing. American used to be THE place for semiconductor manufacturing early on in the 1970s-1980s. BUT, during the late 1980s, 1990s, and into the 2000s, we as a country were perfectly happen to let other countries take that away as long as it meant our products became cheaper. We actively voted our way out of being mecca of semiconductor manufacturing.

We could bring EV battery engineering/manufacturing/design to America with lots of tax dollar investment, but to be perfectly frank, the political will in this country to do that does not exist. People will not want their tax dollars spent trying to create an 100% American EV battery. Heck, a good 20% of the country seemingly doesn’t even want EVs to exist.

So as pessimistic and gutless as it sounds, yes I will happily take a battery manufacturing plant in America that hires American workers, even if it means the technology comes from some Asian country.
2022 4dr Badlands, 2.3L Manual, Mid pkg
YouTube: youtube.com/@ragnarkon
Instagram: @ragnar.kon
Rydfree

Go Team West Yellowstone and Albuquerque

Aug 05, 2023

#17
Ford expects to make 10% profit on EV’s by 2026…

Pretty sure Amazon and Tesla (and most others) operated at a loss for a number of years before turning a profit. A new division within a company does the same…
Riding OB1, 23 4- door Outer Banks, SAS, MOD, MIC, Lux, Ordered 10/20/22, delivered 1/13/23
Eninty

Rank II

Aug 05, 2023

#18
Both Stellantis and GM have been a CATL customers for several years, licensing technology, buying cells, etc.

I know for GM, most of the batteries used in vehicles sold overseas are CATL. It was cheaper just to make those vehicles in Asia using CATL, rather than exporting American-manufactured batteries created under the LG partnership. Stellantis uses just about everyone, LG, CATL, BYD, etc… although for the vehicles that were formerly American (everything under the Chrysler umbrella) they use Samsung.

I’ll admit I have no idea what Toyota is doing. The only Toyota hybrid/electric vehicle I have any interest in is the new Land Cruiser and that will be assembled in Japan. Not even an American product.



Anyway, I realize this all sounds pessimistic, but we’ve seen this all before with electronics manufacturing. American used to be THE place for semiconductor manufacturing early on in the 1970s-1980s. BUT, during the late 1980s, 1990s, and into the 2000s, we as a country were perfectly happen to let other countries take that away as long as it meant our products became cheaper. We actively voted our way out of being mecca of semiconductor manufacturing.

We could bring EV battery engineering/manufacturing/design to America with lots of tax dollar investment, but to be perfectly frank, the political will in this country to do that does not exist. People will not want their tax dollars spent trying to create an 100% American EV battery. Heck, a good 20% of the country seemingly doesn’t even want EVs to exist.

So as pessimistic and gutless as it sounds, yes I will happily take a battery manufacturing plant in America that hires American workers, even if it means the technology comes from some Asian country.

I guess I need to put the blue oval glasses on and drink the ford marketing pup kook aid.

I’m glad I outright own all my ford vehicles and I don’t feel the need to live thru the blue oval marketing machine. That’s one advantage to not getting involved with ford financing or any vehicle payments. They don’t own you.

I guess the right thing to do is to wake up every morning drink the Jim Farley koolaid, put the blue oval glasses on as I walk out the door and convince myself that no matter what the blue oval does ( even though I know it’s not right) it is the gospel and go to the ford church every Sunday. And I also need to remember to hold my right arm at head level as I leave my house doing a ford salute.

Sounds good to me.

Go Team West Yellowstone and Albuquerque

Aug 05, 2023

#19
I guess I need to put the blue oval glasses on and drink the ford marketing pup kook aid.

I’m glad I outright own all my ford vehicles and I don’t feel the need to live thru the blue oval marketing machine. That’s one advantage to not getting involved with ford financing or any vehicle payments. They don’t own you.

I guess the right thing to do is to wake up every morning drink the Jim Farley koolaid, put the blue oval glasses on as I walk out the door and convince myself that no matter what the blue oval does ( even though I know it’s not right) it is the gospel and go to the ford church every Sunday. And I also need to remember to hold my right arm at head level as I leave my house doing a ford salute.

Sounds good to me.

Businesses are in business to make a profit, and since at least the end of WWII countries have all moved toward a more global economy… other countries manufacture stuff we don’t want built here, and we tend to export our tech and design (legally and otherwise)…

Ford has been an international player for many years, and will continue to be.
Riding OB1, 23 4- door Outer Banks, SAS, MOD, MIC, Lux, Ordered 10/20/22, delivered 1/13/23

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